Curse

Pojnx · Nov 08, 2006, 08:57 AM // 08:57

When i learnt about the 55 farming i was in a rush to get 1.. i was kinda excited about the whole farming thing (my noobie days

).. After a while i tried to settle for healing , bonding etc and i started to like it.. i dont get why ppl dont like to have monks,i find it more of a challange to keep up their hp rather than killing coz most of the time they are noobs and play worse than the mobs they trying to kill.. There arent enough monks round nowadays and most of the few that are, usually let me heal the party by myself, and wen i dont use my monk i use hench healers coz i dont like calling out for monks for like 10 mins.. I think monks are gona get rarer than they already are, reason of this is that ppl will search monk builds and set up their heros

Zazoo · Nov 08, 2006, 09:54 AM // 09:54

What most of this thread boils down to is that each person in a party needs to know what thier job is and if they screw up apologise and move on.

Avarre · Nov 08, 2006, 10:15 AM // 10:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by gobla

I usually tell my PuGs at the beginning a few simple rules:
- You're not a ranger or warrior and you pull? I let you die
- You're not a warrior and taking major damage for more then 10 secs? I let you die
- You're rushing ahead of the group? I let you die
- You don't wait for my energy after a battle? I let you die

Sorry, but this is how I saw your post;

- You get aggroed from a wandering patrol? I let you die
- Aggro isn't perfect (can be warrior error) and you get trained? I'd rather not keep group alive (considering being trained generally means almost all damage is there and nowhere else), I let you die.
- You're rushing ahead of the group? I let you die (a fair point, I guess..)
- I can't manage my energy constantly, if the whole group doesn't slow for me? I let you die

As far as I'm concerned, deciding that you won't heal someone just because they make a mistake is the reason people don't like or respect some monks. It's also destructive to the group. In a critical triage situation, yes, you would let the people tanking with 60al die, but otherwise, it's your job to keep people up.

If you're only going to heal when you aren't technically needed, when all aggro is held cleanly, you're essentially removing the real purpose of monks - to cover when there is an error. Not healing (ie: playing your role) when someone slips is akin to raging a group for the same issue.

If, say, and ele runs forward and aggros, this creates a problem. Now, if the team works together properly, that problem will be voided as the mobs are defeated, damage is removed, etc. By refusing to heal, you make the problem worse, and are, in a way, trying to kill the team on purpose as much as the ele was out of ignorance. Which is worse? There are plenty of people making errors because they don't know better, but someone doing it on purpose has no value in any team of mine, ever.

Except, as I said, someone is literally splitting off (the point I agreed with). Running out to save them damages the position of the team further, and can put you at risk. Of course, the Unyielding Aura thing works too as it doesn't actually damage the team - no extra dp, and punishment dealt out before battle situations. It can also be considered griefing by others, though..

sage tank · Nov 08, 2006, 02:45 PM // 14:45

I agree that many of the PuG monk are just bad because they use orison, r HP or healing breeze, but thats just the tip of the iceburg.

Monking don't just involve healing it involves protection, which I see lacking in PVE playing. I rarely see people use protective spirit in hard missions, especially againist those nasty Titans or jade armors etc etc. Those bastards hits 100+ with just attack. Most people who starts in PvE have no idea what protection is, they just use the standard Woh healing build every idiot knows, and brings heal party when panicking in pressure. People got learn use protection prayer, and I do not mean boon proting. yeah sure we can all get PuG healers, but most of them don't understand the fact that some monster can kill you within 2 second if not buffed.

primitiveworker · Nov 08, 2006, 02:51 PM // 14:51

Monk is my favorite profession to play. When I join a PvE PUG, I expect it to be crappy and disastrous. I still try to do my best to keep everyone alive since it serves as good training--things can always get nasty in PvP.

Part of what I like about PUGs is the proliferation of really odd profession combinations and skillbars that people try to use. Sometimes there are some really good ideas.

If you want a predictable PvE experience, play with Guildies only. When you PUG, expect the worst. That way when they perform better than you expect (which should be most of the time) you'll be happy.

I simply enjoy Monkery. If you aren't happy keeping a team of headless chickens alive, Monkery probably isn't for you. It's your job.

NinjaKai · Nov 08, 2006, 03:34 PM // 15:34

Rushers are probably one of the top ranking things that can damage a group. Not uncommon with idiots trying to get masters with a team that isn't.

Hella Good · Nov 08, 2006, 04:05 PM // 16:05

To be honest people are too caught up in the dual Mo thing when Rits make very fine healers and in fact a Monk and Rit healing support is far better than dual Monks. PvE wise that is.

As for people acting stupid and expecting me to deal with their stupidity, it's out of question whether or not they will get healed or no. They won't. There is nothing that I hate more than overextending Warriors, or some dumbface thinking they can aggro 100 monsters and tank them, because the build they got is leet. It's not.

One thing you never ever want to do is piss off your healer.

Effigy · Nov 08, 2006, 07:55 PM // 19:55

I always do my best to keep people alive, but if they consistently do stupid things they can expect to hear about it. If someone is way overextended, then it would be too risky to heal them, so that's one situation where it's better to let them die.

Rera · Nov 09, 2006, 01:10 AM // 01:10

@Avarre:

I read it like this:
- You get aggro'd by wandering patrol = pay attention to your minimap, kthx
- 60AL drawing fire = kite plz
- Overextending = I have to run through the main group to get to you. You die, your fault.
- You go into battle with a monk at 0 nrg = you die, your fault.

Monks are necessary even when players are competent. A lot of areas pack tons of damage, and monster AI is smart enough at this point to target your backline even if the warrior is doing a good job. Grab a decent team and go into Realm of Torment with no healing and see how long you last.

We're not there as a patch-fix for incompetence. Babysitting morons is not something any player should have to do. Just because we're monking we have to put up with lame bullshit while the leeroys and "I'm ****ing invincible" casters get off free? No. You screw up and **** the team, I'm leaving you in the dust next time, period.

You know why heroes are so great? They follow directions - something most real players couldn't do if their lives depended on it.

dgb · Nov 09, 2006, 01:41 AM // 01:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

When I play ele I, with few exceptions, take Aura of Restoration as self heals are so important and take a lot of pressure off the monks.

Wrong attitude. I'd prefer you to take blinding flash over AoR for cutting down physical damage. If you've allready got that I'd prefer gale for when something breaks and a caster needs some time to put some distance between that. If you've got gale I'd prefer wards for obvious reasons. If you've got all of them I'd prefer you to actually deal some damage as you've only got three skills left. Damage mitigation is important, crappy self heals aren't.

AoR is horrible. Ideally as an elementalist you shouldn't be taking damage. In this case AoR is pumping excess healing into someone who is at full health. If you are taking damage, you're either standing there casting in an attempt to get AoR to heal you, which is even worse as you start taking more damage, or you are (correctly) kiting and as such not casting and AoR is doing nothing while I prot you to hell.

It's a horribly conceived skill, it just acheives nothing under any group situation. I've monked for a stupid amount of hours, both in PVE and PVP and AoR makes me sick - there are some strong self heals that I like, but AoR isn't one of them.

gobla · Nov 09, 2006, 07:23 AM // 07:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Sorry, but this is how I saw your post;

- You get aggroed from a wandering patrol? I let you die
- Aggro isn't perfect (can be warrior error) and you get trained? I'd rather not keep group alive (considering being trained generally means almost all damage is there and nowhere else), I let you die.
- You're rushing ahead of the group? I let you die (a fair point, I guess..)
- I can't manage my energy constantly, if the whole group doesn't slow for me? I let you die

As far as I'm concerned, deciding that you won't heal someone just because they make a mistake is the reason people don't like or respect some monks. It's also destructive to the group. In a critical triage situation, yes, you would let the people tanking with 60al die, but otherwise, it's your job to keep people up.

If you're only going to heal when you aren't technically needed, when all aggro is held cleanly, you're essentially removing the real purpose of monks - to cover when there is an error. Not healing (ie: playing your role) when someone slips is akin to raging a group for the same issue.

If, say, and ele runs forward and aggros, this creates a problem. Now, if the team works together properly, that problem will be voided as the mobs are defeated, damage is removed, etc. By refusing to heal, you make the problem worse, and are, in a way, trying to kill the team on purpose as much as the ele was out of ignorance. Which is worse? There are plenty of people making errors because they don't know better, but someone doing it on purpose has no value in any team of mine, ever.

Except, as I said, someone is literally splitting off (the point I agreed with). Running out to save them damages the position of the team further, and can put you at risk. Of course, the Unyielding Aura thing works too as it doesn't actually damage the team - no extra dp, and punishment dealt out before battle situations. It can also be considered griefing by others, though..

It's not my job to keep everyone alive. It's my job to make sure that at the end of the fight some of us are still standing. And if possible, to prevent extremely high death penalties.

Let's take the example of that ele. If i heal him i'll waste all my energy, now in small fights this can be okay. My heals are pretty energy efficient so.. But as soon as a bit bigger groups come into question that have monks of their own I'll be out of energy before half the enemy group is dead and then the whole group can die. So There i am faced with the choice:

- Let the elementalist, who made a very stupid mistake, die.
- Let the rest of the group, who didn't make any mistakes and wich would cause us to fail the entire mission, die.

You say I refuse to heal when it's needed. I have no problem healing an elementalist, assasin or whatever from 1 mob beating on them. AoE is quite common and sometimes mob just break off from the main group. Shit happens, and fine I'll heal. But It's not just me that should focus on keeping everything alive, if you as a clothie have a lvl 28 titan or whatever beating on you then I'll need to constantly spam heals on you to keep you alive. I can't risk my energy like that for the whole group will die if I do. The one being beat on should kite, run and try to lose agro. If he's doing that, sure I'll heal him. If he's just standing there trying to tank and wasting all my energy, bye bye mate.

And yes, if a clothie agros a wandering patrol and takes all initial agro and doesn't lose it immediatly. I let him die. An unexpected patrol is trouble, trouble for wich I need my energy badly, I'd rather have a clothie who didn't watch the radar dead then the whole party dead and mission failed ( with me getting blamed for it ofcourse. )

And fine if people think I'm a jerk monk. I'm not here to be nice, I'm here to ensure that at the end of this mission atleast one of us is still standing to complete it. If I try to be a nice monk and wasting all my energy on a tanking ele or assasin it will only result in the party whiping, and who gets the blame? Yay! The monk! So in the end, if things go wrong, I'll be hated anyway, Better make sure the mission gets completed then.

LightningHell · Nov 09, 2006, 07:24 AM // 07:24

I don't get why people use so much Healing, sometimes. Protection is so much useful on a monk - I'd stick the Healing bit on the Emo with Prodigy Heal Party. Healing with Divine Favor can result in overhealing in many situations.

Wheras, stuff like Protective Spirit, Guardian, etc, can negate a LOT of damage which a Healing Prayers specialized can't do.

Can't type more at the minute.

Zephyr Rose · Nov 09, 2006, 08:32 AM // 08:32

Personally, I've never seen a monk asking for payment to do a mission, FoW or UW. But that could be because I'm usually the monk.

I love monking, and always will, no matter how many times I get flamed (which so far, thankfully, has been none.)

In fact, I particularly enjoy repeating missions just to get a feel for the different builds out there in the wild world of PUGs. I would NEVER dream of asking for payment. And I don't expect thanks for doing my job.

I've only /ragequit once, and that was because some jerk was scrawling "NOOBS" across the mini-map (apparently since none of us knew the EXACT location of the bonus, WE were the noobs, not him.)

And the only time I refuse to heal is when the group (ie one person) splits and decides to aggro that 10 strong mob of Mursaat on his/her own, while we're fighting their twins on the other side of the map. In that type of situation, it's heal that person, or heal the other 6 members of the team. Easy choice.

arcady · Nov 09, 2006, 09:02 AM // 09:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

What is it with Monks today?I find that we have lost our respectablity and they way ppl use to treat Monks say last year before SF update came out.I remember when beinga Monk was hot
...
Last year I got hit up with my Monk and it continued for a week untill I put this person on ignore.

It use to be that ppl respected Monks and liked them so what is today don't we need it.What do monks need to do to get thier respect and to shine like they use to.

Why would anyone hit on somebody because of what their character looked like?

We all get the same 'cute looks' for these characters - and they're only true in real life for me, so...

But seriously, every PUG complaint thread I read ends up being half about players of monks. And now, with Nightfall, anyone can get two monks that will play the game as they want them to play it - so I can see that if monks want to be welcome, they will have to learn to be extra polite. Given the past bad rep, a monk is now less desired than a warrior (and frankly, henchmen warriors were just as good all along skill wise - all you gotta do is point the things in the right direction for warrior play) for a PUG.

Monks lost their respect in the community a -LONG- time ago. But for most of this game's history there was little choice. Now good polite players of monks are saddled with the bad rep the l337-geek monk players have created, and there is no longer the lack of choice to let them ignore this bad rep.

Game survival wise, they are no longer needed save in CH1 before LA or CH2 before Kaening.

Monk players are just going to be have to be extra-polite now to un-earn the bad rep they have had for so long.

Corpselooter · Nov 09, 2006, 04:12 PM // 16:12

Dervishes: lol avatr of baltazr pwns all lols
OMG y didnt u heal stupid noob monk u .... *leave*

Seriously, most dervishes don't even know to handle their own professions, LIEK OMG I HAV AVATR OF BALTHAZAR IM INVINCI LOLZ. Most of the time i let people like that die, afterwards they leave, great one more burden gone.

Another thing i hate, most of the time people think your energy is always 40+ and your reaction time is like 0.01 second or something, they think you heal them 24/7 to full health always, pretty pathetic.

Rera · Nov 09, 2006, 04:23 PM // 16:23

I don't see why monks should have to be any more polite than anyone else, or why they should put up with more crap than anyone else. What reason do we have to cater to groups that don't want us?

I, personally, am happy that monks are less desired in PvE, because that means fewer PMs and blind invites for me.

jesh · Nov 09, 2006, 07:09 PM // 19:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by gobla

I usually tell my PuGs at the beginning a few simple rules:
- You're not a ranger or warrior and you pull? I let you die
- You're not a warrior and taking major damage for more then 10 secs? I let you die
- You're rushing ahead of the group? I let you die
- You don't wait for my energy after a battle? I let you die

I admit I've run into my share of people with no skill/too lazy to play correctly, but I've never stooped to this level. People know how to act, they don't need an elitist monk reminding them. I have been in PuGs where the monk did something like this, and I just left and found another group. Everyone else did too. I bet it felt awesome for the monk to be standing there all alone yelling his rules.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AscalonWarrior

I could say something bad now, but I won't. Have you ever even seen a monk saying that? Personally, I like to play as a monk. But (I'm sorry) people like you ruin my playing. "Oh no it's Mo/W!!! HAS TO BE A 55HP MONK!!111 OMG KICK!"

That's it. Say 1 single class which can't solo or tag team FoW or UW.

BTW the reason people don't like Mo/Ws is that they have very little to no energy management; gobla admitted this him/herself. With NF elites this isn't necessarily true anymore, but then again, what are the chances a Mo/W is running a good build? Disagree with me all you like, but I've been playing for a fair amount of time, and the consistantly bad monks are Mo/Ws. I've also noticed that the best warriors tend to be W/Es.

Quote:

Originally Posted by primitiveworker

I simply enjoy Monkery. If you aren't happy keeping a team of headless chickens alive, Monkery probably isn't for you. It's your job.

Quoted for truth. As a monk this is your job, I suspect you should find something else to do if you don't like babysitting. People respond remarkably well to constructive criticism most of the time. Likewise, most people don't like to see things like, "OMFG U STPD NOOOB!!!1" on their screen. If you ask me, it's people like gobla that have helped monks get less respect. Why should someone have to put up with that kind of attitude for people that hit buttons 1-8, just like they do? It's been pointed out plenty of times that a monk is no more special than any other profession, and you don't see warriors charging gold to kill mobs. What was the point of this thread again?

Effigy · Nov 09, 2006, 07:34 PM // 19:34

Well, what it comes down to is that most people don't want to play support. They want to be the damage superstar that stands in the middle of a huge mob and kills everything. This is why there are tons of warriors and elementalists and necromancers, but it's usually hard to find monks for a PUG.

This doesn't mean that monks are more or less valuable than other classes, but they fill a role most people don't want to fill. Even a good portion of the monk players want to smite and whatnot because they can't stand the notion of just helping their team rather than dealing damage. For this reason, I don't have a problem with monks who want to charge for their services, so long as their services are worth paying for and they aren't being obnoxious about it. Some people would gladly pay a little pocket change for the help of a monk (assuming the monk knows what he's doing). Maybe they would do the same for a warrior's help, but I doubt that would happen very often because warriors are rarely in short supply.

Anyway, the reason I think most monks don't try to charge isn't because they don't want money or they think asking for compensation is "lame," but rather most experienced monks have much faster and easier ways of making money. It would be pointless for me to charge 1k to help a PUG do a mission, because I can farm 1k in a few minutes using the same character. When you really think about it, the time you waste trying to get a group to pay you for help on a mission, then actually doing the mission with them, is not very profitable compared to other money-making options.

arcady · Nov 09, 2006, 09:03 PM // 21:03

I'm not saying monks need to be -more- polite, just -as polite- as anyone else.

In past, playing a monk gave one an excuse to be rude, use l337-speak, or otherwise act juvenile.

Actual people doing this were probably a minority. Probably no more than any other profession. However in the past every PUG group -needed- a monk player - so a rude monk showed up faster than say, a rude warrior. First, you encountered monks more often as you could and can get away with henching out any other needed role, but a monk needs to be played intelligently. Second, because you encountered them more often you risked encountering the same jerks more often.

A sample size of 1 can make a whole group of otherwise excellent people look bad - and anytime humans deal with someone different, they remember the 'incidents' of negativity over the 'nothing happened' days of positivity. For example, if a person of race X gets cut off on the road by a driver of race Y, they start feeling all 'Y people' are bad drivers. If they get cut off by ten people of Y, this is still a faulty observation. They failed to remember and record exactly how many people of type Y did -NOT- cut them off. Further, a fellow type X they think of as 'that guy' rather than 'that driver of type Y'.

Bias works that way in all human interactions, and a game is no different.

So every 1 bad monk makes the next hundred good ones look bad to people who are not 'inside the monk fold'...

And it was further troubled for monks because you had to deal with them...

Now, people can Hero their monk role - Heros can be designed and controlled, unlike a henchman. So while they are not as good as a good player, they are on par with a 'has potential newbie'. And Heroes, other than Acolyte Jin in cut scenes, are polite.

For monks to overcome the image of that one bad monk, they now have to be extra polite and convince people they belong. The same problem all other professions faced in the past. But made worse because monks for so long could get away with ignoring their bad/rude/l337 players and the bad image it gave them.

arcady · Nov 09, 2006, 09:13 PM // 21:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by gobla

I usually tell my PuGs at the beginning a few simple rules:
- You're not a ranger or warrior and you pull? I let you die
- You're not a warrior and taking major damage for more then 10 secs? I let you die
- You're rushing ahead of the group? I let you die
- You don't wait for my energy after a battle? I let you die

I'm surprised you are able to notice all of this and still be effective at protection or healing...

I've only just made my first primary monk, but I've played several secondary monks, including protection ritualist / monk.

When I'm in there at it, I have a set of keyboard shortcuts I defined (hit f11 and go to keyboard shortcuts - I discovered a player since Beta yesterday who didn't know this despite being a vastly better player than me otherwise) for 'players 1 through 8'.

When a fight is happening a barely watch the main screen. 90% of the time I'm watching the red bars and if one starts to go down in the slightest I select that one with my shortcut and apply whichever spell isn't currently recharging...

So I spend the whole time with my fingers racing through selection - spell - selection - spell - selection - spell. I only look at the main screen enough to make sure I am located where it is unlikely my red bar will be the one going down...